The Islamic devil, Iblis, was sentenced to hell by Allah for disobedience and rebellion. However, his sentence was delayed until the Day of Judgment. Why? Because he asked for his sentence to be delayed until the Day of Judgment. It's a simple "don't ask, don't get" situation. And now, Iblis is using his stay of execution to lead all men and women astray to hell because he's a bitter motherfucker.
In Christianity, Satan is a "liar and the father of lies" who "disguises himself as an angel of light." Assuming he's read Simon Sinek's book (who hasn't?), Satan's "why" is to make not-true things seem true.
I hate that.
Maybe Satan turned me stupid enough to believe the evidence against God's existence? If Islam is true, then maybe Iblis tricked me into believing Christianity for 20 years? If you believe somebody's lies (including Satan's lies), the implication is that you're stupid – stupid enough to believe lies.
Or possibly Satan is an overwhelmingly convincing liar. Maybe he got his acting chops by selling his soul to Meryl Streep. But then we have the epistemological problem that no one ever knows when they're in possession of the truth or a giant bag of bullshit sold to them by demon-Meryl-Streep.
As I attempt to stretch my ongoing accounting analogy significantly beyond its limits, it's clear that the devil commits fraud. But he's not like Andy Fastow. Fastow was doing exactly what the guys in charge wanted. Satan isn't like Bernie Madoff or Bernie Ebbers because he's not the head guy. He's subordinate to God. And he's not like someone who's just misappropriating assets. He's not getting rich by tricking humans.
But he is convincing people of lies to make them change their behavior.
There's no analogy in business for Satan's role in God's creation. That's because any good CEO would shitcan a sociopathic liar immediately regardless of HR's best practices.
The one conclusion I can come to about the existence of Satan is that it seems to demonstrate that God sets a poor tone at the top. According to COSO, the control environment - the tone at the top - is the most important aspect of internal control.
If God is committed to the truth, and he knows that Satan is perpetrating fraud, and he can remove the source of the fraud, yet he permits the source of the fraud to remain and continue committing fraud, then either God is complicit in the fraud or he doesn't really care about us knowing the truth.
I find it interesting the number of expletives you use in this post. Also, it is the most rant like of all your posts. You don't even seem to be asking any question, or I am just missing it. Clearly you feel passionate when it comes to this subject. This got me thinking about the fact that I don't feel passionately about this. If I think about believing in God it never includes the Devil. If the Devil is somehow a part of any particular conversation I dismiss it. If I start to question whether I even believe in the Devil I usually find some pressing matter to attend to, like what should we have for dinner. Mostly I think I avoid this because I am not sure I even believe the Devil exists, and if that is the case it would call into question my other beliefs. I am not sure how willing I am to question those right now. Of coarse, I will have to at some point I am sure.
ReplyDeleteGreat observations, Jen. I did swear a lot in this post because (1) I like to swear and (2) I figured no one would be offended with me calling Satan a motherfucker.
DeleteThis post has two questions at it's heart: (1) If Satan exists, can anyone be sure they know the truth about God? (2) If Satan exists and if he is ever successful at deceiving anyone, does that imply that God doesn't really care about all people knowing him?
It seems to me that Satan is an anachronistic belief that makes caring people cry and smart people wince. Sucks if you're both caring and smart.
I'm sure you like swearing so much now due to all those years of not letting it loose for the most part - you have to make up for the uninhibited fun you missed out on.
DeleteGreg, I think your logic in this post is good, based on the ideas you are working with, and I certainly see the questions it raises. I actually think this is one of the more difficult challenges you have raised. Of course, I think there may be other factors that you aren't considering or that none of us are aware of. I am looking into some ideas on this, so we'll see what might be helpful. But for a start, for most Christians this is something where we trust that God has good reasons for allowing it. Even if we aren't clear on those reasons, we trust Him rather than using it as a reason to reject God and all the things we do understand, which includes the evidence that He does care about each of us knowing Him - especially that Jesus was crucified for us.
ReplyDeleteDuane, I respect what you're saying here. You have other things that convince you that Christianity is true. Therefore, you believe that God is good and just, and that the Satan problem has a satisfying answer that isn't immediately accessible to us.
DeleteI didn't really think the Satan problem was a big deal to me. It was a problem, but not a huge one. Jennifer (above) made me think harder about it, and it turns out it is a big deal to me.
You know that one of my biggest problems is that God's existence and identity are not obvious. Now add on top of that a devil who's trying to trick me.
The more I write about this, the more it seem clear that if God exists, he doesn't want us to know about him.
I have worked through some thoughts on this that I want to add to Barrett's thoughts which are really important regarding how if the God of the Bible is real, then He provided us with assistance in recognizing deception.
DeleteMy thoughts have taken some time to sort out how to put it. The key thing is this: The Glory of God and the significance of Truth are most clear to us in the midst of the deception in the world. If there were no deceptive ideas, then truth would just be all there is, but it wouldn’t be valuable to us because we wouldn’t understand deception. In thinking about this the question is, “What if God didn’t allow there to be anything deceptive?” If that was the case, we would have no reason to figure things out and seek understanding – to do what you are doing – it wouldn’t matter to us. God doesn’t want us to simply believe He exists, He wants us to understand WHO He is. But we will clearly see how great God is only in the midst of deceptions, rather than by having all deceptions removed and just liking Jesus because He made our life easier. The key is that God wants us to value Truth, which involves more than just thinking something is true, it requires that we seek after the Truth because it is important to us (which we won’t do if it is just obvious). It also involves understanding the differences between ideas, and if we actually see the contrast between Truth and deception, then we will understand how good God is.
The Theological context for this stuff on Satan is that we had authority in this world until Adam surrendered that authority to Satan in the Garden of Eden, thus joining Satan’s rebellion when he sinned. As a result, if God decided to judge Satan and destroy him today, God would have to judge and destroy all who are part of the rebellion. But as the Apostle Peter explains, God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance and faith in His Son Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:9). So the reason why God allows Satan to continue to exist in the world is actually His incredible mercy towards us. We deserve judgment for our own rebellion against God, so if not for God’s mercy, Satan would have won an incredible victory.
Duane,
DeleteIf I’m reading you right, you’re saying that deception may prevent us from knowing the truth, but it allows us to value the truth. By allowing Satan to deceive us, God is implicitly communicating that he is more concerned with us valuing the truth than knowing the truth about him.
I could be okay with that except that salvation from eternal hell hinges upon proper belief. Proper belief is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for salvation. Valuing truth, however, does not play into the salvation equation. If it does, it does so only indirectly.
On the Day of Judgment, everyone will know the truth, right? I will know the truth, and I will value the truth, and it will be too late for me to do anything about the truth. That doesn’t sit right.
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DeleteGreg,
DeleteI think you have read me right on both posts here. However, I think the implication you draw is a limited perspective which ends up creating a discrepancy that isn't really there. I'm not sure that God values one thing over the other here, I think God wants us to recognize more than just true facts, He wants us to Understand the Truth. I am referring to the fact that there are 3 aspects involved here: Knowing Truth, Valuing Truth, and Understanding why it is Significant. You left out the 3rd part in your response, and I only briefly referred to it. These 3 concepts are closely related, but if there were no deceptive ideas in the world then we would not Understand the Significance of the Truth we know, but we would keep it at a factual level. It would never be of “Value” to us because it is the only option and we wouldn't comprehend what it would be like without that "fact." A simple example might be something like roads, we all know they serve a purpose, but we take them for granted and don't consciously value them. We don't really know what life would be like without them, because we have never had to get around w/out roads (not sure if that's the best example, another could be the military in that we don't understand what it would be like if we didn't have one so we don't give it the appropriate value... or you can come up with a better example). So when it comes to God, if there weren’t false ideas, then we would never Understand the significance of the True God because His existence would just be a basic fact for us. As I mentioned in my previous comment, we wouldn’t Understand why God’s “Goodness” matters or makes any difference, we would just know that He is Good .
The false/deceptive ideas in the world are ultimately what enable us to Understand the significance of the Truth. When we wrestle with the question of what is True, we come to Understand why it matters and then we "Value" the Truth that we know. As a result, we will desire to know and understand more Truth - that may be the key. God is not content with us just knowing facts, it's not a trivia game, so He allows deception in order that we will seek to Understand the Truth - not just believe stuff.
Finally, as you mention, proper belief is a necessary condition for salvation. To make a connection with this, when we go beyond identifying a factual Truth to Understanding the significance of that Truth, that is when we are compelled to Faith (to trust and follow) - which is the sufficient condition. So God must value all aspects.
Good comment from Duane. I too believe that God has a bigger part that the devil is playing than we can easily see. It's kind of like asking, If the emperor was such a bad guy, why did George Lucas allow him to exist in the Star Wars trilogy?
ReplyDeleteGreg, you are the one that doesn't want to know about God. He says so clearly in Scripture. We don't see him, because we don't want to see him. You've already rejected the Christian Bible as an authoritative source, yet you keep referring back to it to illustrate your discussions. On one hand, you're rejecting god as an idea, but then on the other hand, you're confusing the Christian understanding of God with the Muslim understanding of Allah, or presenting either versions portrayals of satan as viable. Jesus is very clear when he talks about this in Scripture. You either come to god through him, or you're not coming to God.
So, for example, if we're dealing with the Muslim understanding of god, then you're right, he doesn't want us to know him. Allah is not a personal god, and Satan is trying to gain as many neutral men to join him as possible. In Budhism, to know god is to know ourselves and the world around us. All of us have a bit of light and dark in us, and balance is what is desired. In Christianity, to know God is to know Jesus, Satan is a fallen angel and has power only for a time, and God has those who are his own. In Greece, Hades was Zeus' brother, and had some good and some bad in him (as did all the gods).
For the Christian understanding of satan, how can you know if the devil is tricking you or not? We have God's word, which 1) tells us that the devil is a liar, 2) tells us that he has an end of depreciable life in sight (to return to your analogy), and 3) tells us what truth is and how to avoid satan's lies. What the Bible is also very clear about is this: 4) Satan is not co-equal or co-powerful with God. God could end Satan at any point he wants to. 5) Everything Satan does, he does under God's sovereignty and reign. 6) God keeps those who are his own. 7) Satan thought he won, in crucifying Jesus, but cemented his own destruction.
I hope this adds to the discussion. Satan is a problem when I consider him, but I rely on what Christ has said and done to see his end.